19. Legal Advertising & Brand Building in Personal Injury Law w/ Terry Crouppen

[00:00:00] Bobby Steinbach:
Welcome to Hot Docket, a show where we talk about winning marketing strategies that have built the most successful All.

[00:00:11] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Join us every two weeks for the latest trends and tactics to grow your law firm.

[00:00:17] Bobby Steinbach:
Hey everybody and welcome to the Hot Docket podcast. Today we’re going to be talking about building a top personal injury brand and we’ve got a very special guest on to do it.

[00:00:26] Bobby Steinbach:
So I’m excited for that conversation. Andrew, we were working for a top personal injury brand. You For three and a half years, um, so this is going to be near and dear to my heart. Are you excited?

[00:00:38] Andrew Nasrinpay:
I’m excited, especially because we’re talking with one of the best on the branded side.

[00:00:43] Bobby Steinbach:
So with that, I’d like to introduce our guest today, Terry Crouppen, founder of Brown and Crouppen, a personal injury firm based out of Missouri.

[00:00:50] Bobby Steinbach:
Thanks for joining us today, Terry.

[00:00:52] Terry Croupen:
My pleasure. And you’ve got me excited. I’m excited to talk to you guys.

[00:00:56] Bobby Steinbach:
I also know you mentioned, uh, what’d you say? Shitty Mona Lisa at the [00:01:00] start of this. So,

[00:01:01] Terry Croupen:
yeah, I mean, you know, it’s as you get older, you, uh, you lower your expectations.

[00:01:08] Bobby Steinbach:
All right. Good for us.

[00:01:09] Andrew Nasrinpay:
So the theme today.

[00:01:11] Andrew Nasrinpay:
is building a personal injury brand through branding and we want us to kind of have you walk us through the background of you as an attorney and when you started Brown and Crouppen. Just give us a little bit of a history about the firm.

[00:01:24] Terry Croupen:
I will be happy to. Let’s see. I graduated from law school. In 73, I think, I don’t remember, uh, I went to Washington University here in St.

[00:01:36] Terry Croupen:
Louis and, uh, my, I came from a family of bail bondsmen, which is, uh, quite an experience. And I went to work for the public defender’s office here in St. Louis, worked there for about two years, tried a number of criminal cases. And then an old friend of mine that I’d gone to college with, we started a law firm, and And, uh, [00:02:00] you know, we were, uh, out earning a living, doing a lot of criminal, some personal injury.

[00:02:07] Terry Croupen:
Uh, over the years, I wasn’t the first person to realize this, but it was after the Bates decision in Arizona, where advertising was first given the green light on, it was basically print, but there was nothing in there to think that you couldn’t do other things. So, my partner and I decided, let’s try to put some ads, and we, we had a urban radio station in St.

[00:02:37] Terry Croupen:
Louis, Magic 108. And so we bought some time, and we went on radio. And we went fairly heavily, because it was very reasonably priced at the time. And we were shocked at the results. We were the first persons in the St. Louis area to advertise. And it [00:03:00] really, you know, it was well received. And so immediately we had a huge uptick in cases and, uh, the, the big difficulty was doing the cases.

[00:03:13] Terry Croupen:
You know, we worked very hard to keep up with the, with the inventory and yet we kept plowing money back in and we became very successful very quickly. You know, we built a brand at a time when building a brand and the law is easy because There were no other brands. So we kept it up and then the bar got interested in us and not in a positive way.

[00:03:39] Terry Croupen:
Uh, back then lawyers felt that advertising was beneath them and beneath the profession. And so they really set out to stop us and we ended up in about a 20, 25 year fight with the bar. And, uh, [00:04:00] I mean, it was back and forth and vicious and they really, really did not like what we were doing. You know, we, we advertise, we, you know, there were very few rules, uh, as we went on, more and more rules were added on, but we tried to comply.

[00:04:19] Terry Croupen:
And we succeeded. And so we built this brand. We were very careful to preserve. I was the spokesperson. So I was the brand. And have continued. Now my son is also, uh, occupies that role. Uh, it was a, uh, a really crazy wonderful ride. You know, when we first started, I had, it was frankly motivated largely by, you know, I wanted to be successful.

[00:04:52] Terry Croupen:
I wanted to be a successful lawyer. And the more cases you had, the more successful you were. And so that’s what it was [00:05:00] motivated by originally. But over the years, what I observed is that a lot of people have cases. and don’t know they have cases, or don’t know what the cases would be like. And we realized that we were doing an actual service to the community.

[00:05:19] Terry Croupen:
And over the years, I realized it was an important service and helped a lot of people. That would have never gotten fair compensation for the wrong that was done to them if a lawyer hadn’t have been involved. And they would have never thought of calling a lawyer if they didn’t see our ads on TV and radio.

[00:05:38] Terry Croupen:
After we were on radio for some time, we switched to television and stayed on radio. And so we got the additional benefit of not only economically thriving, but We were doing something good for people and that made it just a [00:06:00] wonderful career. I have no regrets. It’s been a wonderful career. We’ve helped tens of thousands of people get fair compensation for something that should never have happened to them.

[00:06:11] Terry Croupen:
So I’ve had a career of doing good and doing good for my family and myself.

[00:06:18] Bobby Steinbach:
Yeah. Well, let me tell you, Terry, I am very jealous of you specifically. I’m the failed host of a YouTube segment focused on food myself, pizza partner in pugs, um, and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t jealous of three lawyers eating sandwiches.

[00:06:33] Bobby Steinbach:
Walk me through that. How’d you guys land on the idea and how’s it been running with it?

[00:06:38] Terry Croupen:
Well, I can’t take much of the credit for it. Uh, at my age, uh, being an internet pioneer was not in my, in the cards for me, but my son, Andy. And Ed Herman, one of our partners, well, our other partner, uh, they are [00:07:00] far younger.

[00:07:00] Terry Croupen:
And so they are much attuned to the internet and online things. And, and they thought this would be something that we, we noticed that when we went to lunch, Before the pandemic, we would eat lunch together every day, the three of us. And we developed a very enjoyable and I think objectively a very nice ability to discuss just about anything.

[00:07:33] Terry Croupen:
Uh, in, in a, an interesting way. It was interesting conversation when the three of us got together, time just flew. It was one of those things where you didn’t have to like search desperately for what to talk about. And everybody in the group, Andy, myself, and Ed, uh, we had often very different opinions and we were eating at the same time.

[00:07:58] Terry Croupen:
So when we. [00:08:00] Uh, we were looking for new avenues to, to advertise because as you may or may not know, you know, the, we were maybe the first to start in this area. Uh, we were not the first forever, you know, there’s a lot of competition now. And so you always look for new ways to get your message out. And so now through the internet.

[00:08:27] Terry Croupen:
That was the latest way. And so we thought we could import our lunches on the Internet and, you know, have a interesting time on the idea that if people found us interesting, they may also find us to be somebody that they would trust with an important case. And so that’s how we started.

[00:08:47] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Yeah, I could tell you that Ed Herman taught me how to mix cereals and all that sort of stuff.

[00:08:52] Andrew Nasrinpay:
It’s pretty hilarious. And

[00:08:55] Terry Croupen:
he is a strange, strange man. He, he [00:09:00] gives, he has a ability to micro focus on the oddest places. And he, yes, he knows every nuance that you can imagine when it comes to breakfast cereal. You know, he’s not going to be taken to Washington for it, but it makes for an amusing 20 minutes.

[00:09:21] Andrew Nasrinpay:
That kind of opens up into my next question, which is different brands give off different emotions. If you had to think of what emotion, uh, Brown and Crouppen gives off, what would you think? When I think of Brown and Crouppen, I think I like those guys. I think authentic. That is kind of what I feel, but I’m curious your perspective on that.

[00:09:45] Terry Croupen:
Uh, I think we’re trying to be who we are, which is we’re real people. We’re not pretentious people. We’re not arrogant people. We’re just people that, you know, happen to go to law school and [00:10:00] happen to be very good at what we do. But in terms of the people we are, I think we’re sort of an old fashioned, you know, ethical things, character, integrity.

[00:10:13] Terry Croupen:
Honesty, we really, those things mean a lot to us and, and we, we exhibit them in our personal lives and, uh, they mean something to us. You know, we recently had a discussion about lawyers who want to put a defendant on the stand to say he didn’t do it and then purposely never asked the client if he did it or not so they could put him on even if he did it because they didn’t know it.

[00:10:43] Terry Croupen:
And they didn’t know it because they didn’t want to know it. So they shielded themselves. And we had a very long discussion about that. I don’t know that a lot of other All have those kinds of discussions, but we really talked about it because my position is, I think that’s [00:11:00] fairly dishonest, you know, you’re, you’re circumventing the rule on purpose.

[00:11:06] Terry Croupen:
And so, you know, we try to do things the right way. We work hard, got a lot of smart people. We have over 250 people working with us now. And we practice basically in three states with, we do mass torts all over the country. And uh, you know, we’re old fashioned in that, you know, we’re honesty, integrity, and uh, you know, we’d like to think we have a great deal of honor.

[00:11:33] Terry Croupen:
We’re proud of what we do. We’re proud to be lawyers. Thanks.

[00:11:36] Bobby Steinbach:
So today is about all things brand and today we’re talking specifically about building a top personal injury brand. This concept of brand is abstract and it’s impossible to say that one specific thing is what’s driving your success as a brand because it’s many things.

[00:11:52] Bobby Steinbach:
But it’s important. Can you share some of the ways that you’ve maintained your identity as a brand as you’ve gotten bigger, as you brought on new people, [00:12:00] what’s been, you know, the challenges that you’ve kind of faced in maintaining that?

[00:12:04] Terry Croupen:
I think consistency is important. In other words, being there all the time, not stopping, you know, not, uh, you know, always being there with a.

[00:12:15] Terry Croupen:
Consistent message of who you are. You know, I, I try to make us appeal to people by who we are, which is real people, honest people, we’re going to help you. We can help you. If we can’t help you, we’ll tell you that. And so I think consistency, continuing with the message day after day, month after month, year after year.

[00:12:39] Terry Croupen:
I think that’s the number one thing. And I like to believe that people, when they see you enough on TV or hear you enough on radio, I think they can get a sense of who you are and I think we’re decent people. So I think that comes across, you know, it’s a, we try not to do just the typical [00:13:00] lawyer stuff. I think the consistency and staying at it is, is probably if you had to pick one single thing.

[00:13:08] Terry Croupen:
That’s probably the most important, which means you end up with a law practice economically that, you know, you have a very fat partner that eats a lot of your profits up and that’s your marketing budget. You know, a lot of All don’t have that budget and, and that’s, you know, in some ways an advantage, but you know, it’s expensive to keep yourself in front of the public.

[00:13:36] Bobby Steinbach:
And as you’ve maintained your recognition in the public, have you found that that’s affected the outcome of your cases one way or the other?

[00:13:43] Terry Croupen:
Well, let me tell you something about lawyers. We often don’t know, you know, it’s very hard to tell exactly what you’re doing that’s working so well. You know, it’s, it’s, people call us.

[00:13:55] Terry Croupen:
We ask them, where did they hear about us? But we’ve been [00:14:00] advertising for almost 50 years. You know, we’ve been every place all the time. So it’s very hard to say specifically what caused that client to come to it. It’s a, you know, it’s a, it’s just a gumbo or a, you know, a big, a million contacts. And so a lot of this is just coming at people in many different ways with a consistent message and then letting people make up their own mind.

[00:14:28] Terry Croupen:
We have a fickle market. In other words, I’ve had people that we’ve represented several times very successfully and you’ll see them and they’ll say, Oh, I had a case and I went to another lawyer and I’ll say, Oh, that’s odd. I thought you were happy. Oh, we were happy. But my cousin’s brother said, use his lawyer.

[00:14:48] Terry Croupen:
You know, oftentimes the branding we do leads to great recognition. But it doesn’t always, you know, it’s not a lock. [00:15:00] You know, there’s certain brands like, uh, Apple. My son would not get any other phone but an iPhone, no matter what. If you gave him a phone, he wouldn’t take it. Only an iPhone. You know, I think Rolex has it, Mercedes Benz.

[00:15:17] Terry Croupen:
You know, there’s a number of brands that are not only well known, very strong, I, I call it brand strength. And that’s what I think we always, uh, aspire to, to make our brand a strong one. So if you know us, you’re going to want us no matter what.

[00:15:34] Andrew Nasrinpay:
You know, one interesting thing, Terry, is when we did, um, like polling in a bunch of different areas.

[00:15:43] Andrew Nasrinpay:
If you asked people if they could name a single law firm in most areas in the U. S., it was something around 50 percent of people could not name a single firm. And if you look, there’s, what is it, like four or six billion dollars spent a year on legal [00:16:00] advertising, most of it being personal injury. And most people can’t name a single law firm brand.

[00:16:05] Andrew Nasrinpay:
So,

[00:16:06] Terry Croupen:
you know, and we don’t know why that is. Our speculation is. That people don’t pay attention to lawyer ads unless they need a lawyer. And so they’re not really giving us, that’s why you’ll see a lot of lawyer ads, you know, they use humor. They do anything to keep your attention and keep you focused.

[00:16:26] Terry Croupen:
Because if you don’t need a lawyer, it doesn’t mean much. And if it doesn’t mean much, you don’t pay attention, you don’t pay attention, you don’t remember.

[00:16:35] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Yeah, I think that, like, memorable aspect of a television or radio ad is very important.

[00:16:41] Terry Croupen:
It really is. When we, uh, you may not know this, but there used to be a football team, the St.

[00:16:46] Terry Croupen:
Louis Rams. We got them from Los Angeles when they left. And then we lost them back to Los Angeles when they built the new stadium. Uh, that really upset me. I was a big Rams fan.

[00:16:59] Bobby Steinbach:
Kurt [00:17:00] Warner?

[00:17:00] Terry Croupen:
Uh, yeah, oh yeah. We went to all the games. Went to the Super Bowl twice. And when Mr. Kroenke took the team back to Los Angeles, after we had been great fans.

[00:17:13] Terry Croupen:
We supported him when he had let the team go down and down. I mean, it was just terrible and he took them back. And so I decided that I was very angry and I wrote a commercial and I put it on. I, we paid for a, a local insertion Super Bowl ad, which was the most expensive commercial we’d ever run. And it was basically saying, you know, you’re an asshole, pardon the expression, and, and we, we bought your stinking beer and your overpriced hot dogs, and now you leave us and, you know, you got 10 billion and what do you need more money for?

[00:17:55] Terry Croupen:
I was angry and it, we, it, it received the greatest, [00:18:00] uh, attention and, and I mean, I would go places that people would stand up and clap for me here in St. Louis. I mean, I was You know, really, you know, I was known because I’d been on television for a long time, but this was like nothing I’d ever experienced.

[00:18:14] Terry Croupen:
We got close to a million, you know, views. And this is like 10 years ago, whatever it was. I mean, it’s a long time ago. That was a lot of views. And that’s what I think our brand is. You know, we’re not just people that come from out of town to make money off people in St. Louis and Kansas City. And, and, you know, in Kansas and, and mid Missouri, you know, we’re, we live here.

[00:18:38] Terry Croupen:
The people in this town means something to us. And, uh, and the ads like that, nobody, now a couple other All have run them after we ran them. But I think, you know, people saw that we weren’t kidding. We’re from St. Louis. We’re from Kansas City. That means something. The people there are good people.

[00:18:58] Terry Croupen:
They deserve better. [00:19:00] And we try to get it for them.

[00:19:01] Bobby Steinbach:
You can’t fake authentic.

[00:19:03] Terry Croupen:
You can, but it’s hard. I’m sure you can’t. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, Reminded of, uh, somebody said that, that, that one of the candidates for president, Mr. Trump is very good at faking authentic. So I think you can do it, but I can’t do it.

[00:19:22] Andrew Nasrinpay:
So, what do you think your firm does better than anyone else, and what do you think is driving that success?

[00:19:28] Terry Croupen:
Um, we pay attention to details. A lot of All, lawyers for a long time, when I first went into the practice, there was a certain arrogance among lawyers. You know, they were professionals, which is important, but there was a certain arrogance, a certain, I’m doing you a favor by being your lawyer. So if I don’t call you back, or if I don’t answer your questions completely, or I don’t treat you right, you know, you better take it because [00:20:00] I’m a lawyer and you’re lucky to have me.

[00:20:02] Terry Croupen:
And if you give me any, you know, any backtalk, I’ll get rid of you. I mean, that was kind of an attitude that was, You know, way too common. And so, it’s really simple. We just treat people like we would want to be treated. You know, we understand. I, I’ve called doctor’s offices and, you know, waiting for a phone call because it was about something important and didn’t get that call.

[00:20:28] Terry Croupen:
And I felt bad, left me with a bad taste in my mouth. You know, we, we understand that kind of stuff. And we understand. That we represent human beings who have feelings and have lives and that this case may well be the most important thing they got in their whole life right now. This is their lifeline to get in their life to put back together.

[00:20:50] Terry Croupen:
And so we pay a great deal of attention. Our client service, which I’ve always believed, a person coming to a lawyer, [00:21:00] most likely oftentimes for the first time, they don’t know what to expect. They don’t know what they’re entitled to. They don’t know how good or bad their settlement is most of the most part, but they sure know how they were treated.

[00:21:14] Terry Croupen:
And so we go way, way out of our way with training and insistence on excellence when it comes to client service and being empathetic and caring and doing the job promptly. And when we say, we’ll call you tomorrow, we call them tomorrow. When we say, you know, it’s, you know, it’ll be two days. It’s two days, and it’s two days for a good reason.

[00:21:40] Terry Croupen:
So I mean, it’s not hard, it’s, it’s very simple. We treat people the way we would want to be treated if we had something terrible happen to us. A lawyer who does personal injury has to understand that they’re very much like an emergency room in a hospital. People that come to us are dealing with real trauma, something [00:22:00] bad has happened to them, and they’re in trouble.

[00:22:03] Terry Croupen:
And we treat it that way. And we treat it that way. With the seriousness that it demands and it deserves.

[00:22:10] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Yeah, I, I think you touched on something really important there about, uh, when people call in, they have certain expectations. And it’s not even expectations because they don’t know what to expect.

[00:22:22] Andrew Nasrinpay:
It’s just that they’re very often disappointed. So one area that we see firms fail at pretty consistently, whether they’re a solo or a large firm, is the intake. It’s a super simple process. But you’ll see large, successful firms not picking up 10 to 15 percent of their phone calls that come in, which is crazy when you’re spending millions of dollars on TV, radio, billboards, PPC ads, and then you’re letting 10 to 15 percent of that just evaporate because that client’s not going to call back.

[00:22:55] Terry Croupen:
No, you’re absolutely right. There are too many lawyers. You know, they have so many other choices. No, [00:23:00] we spend an enormous amount of time on intake. And as you say, intake seems to be very simple. It’s just picking up a phone, but it’s very complicated. No, we have rules about how many rings it can be. We, you know, we have, we monitor all our calls.

[00:23:18] Terry Croupen:
You know, we listen in, our people know, and we are looking for excellence. You know, empathy, professionalism, kindness, uh, and, and you’re right. It’s the first step in creating a relationship with somebody who needs help. And it’s a step that’s filled with opportunities for failure. And you have to be a real experienced professional to handle it the right way.

[00:23:51] Terry Croupen:
And we spend a lot of money and time and training people, you know, to bring that excellence to the job. But it’s not [00:24:00] easy and it’s not simple. It just kind of seems like it should be. But it isn’t.

[00:24:05] Andrew Nasrinpay:
When the measurement is something like abandoned calls, you think it’s simple that you just need to pick up the phone, but it’s hard when you’re getting hundreds or thousands of phone calls a day to properly expect the amount of demand where your demand might be higher on Monday than it is on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.

[00:24:22] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Do you overstaff just to take advantage of Monday or do you use a vendor to, you know, kind of work that overflow? All of that’s pretty, pretty complicated when it gets down to it for a simple thing like picking up the phone.

[00:24:35] Terry Croupen:
Yeah. It can be, it’s a real haven for shortsightedness, you know what I mean? You can make a lot of foolish decisions on the idea that you just haven’t given it the thought, but you’re absolutely right, I think today, for most big successful All that deal with heavy, you know, I don’t know if, uh, you know, if personal injury creates more [00:25:00] phone contacts, but whatever it is, most personal injury firms that I know, and I know quite a few, I mean, that’s one of the areas people are really starting to pay attention to and to focus.

[00:25:12] Terry Croupen:
Now, we’ve done it for a long time, but a lot of All are just getting into it, but it’s very important. You know, it’s just common courtesy. It’s somebody’s asking you for help. Are you going to say, go to hell or I’m too busy or wait a second? You know, are you going to say, Oh my God, you’ve got a serious problem.

[00:25:31] Terry Croupen:
Let me rush and help you. I mean, that’s the basic that. The two options and we’ve chosen the latter.

[00:25:40] Andrew Nasrinpay:
At the beginning you mentioned that even when you first started the firm you started with criminal cases and then you expanded to bring in personal injury and now you’re taking cases like mass tort cases nationally.

[00:25:52] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Are there any cases that you’d want to shine a light on for maybe other attorneys to send you referrals for or maybe there’s something new that you think [00:26:00] is particularly egregious and you just want more lawyers to hear about it?

[00:26:04] Terry Croupen:
I’m not probably the best. One to handle this in terms of what cases we’re looking for currently.

[00:26:13] Terry Croupen:
It seems to be a little lull in the mass torts world at the moment. Although there are the Camp Lejeune cases, as I’m sure you’ve heard of. I know the, uh, weight loss drugs are a big thing today. You know, you’re never going to go broke betting that big corporations are going to try to cut costs and, and make a little extra money at the expense of, of the people they’re supposed to be helping.

[00:26:42] Terry Croupen:
So, I think these cases are here. They’re going to not go in any place. They’ll be here, you know, and, and they’ll know people, you know, we let people know when there’s a, a one that really needs some attention.

[00:26:56] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Is there any case in the past that you’re particularly proud of, like one [00:27:00] you or maybe one of your partners handled?

[00:27:02] Andrew Nasrinpay:
You just want to talk a little bit about?

[00:27:04] Terry Croupen:
Oh, yeah. I mean, I can’t tell you how many. I mean, we, we’ve done just a lot of large litigation and, and I don’t think people understand what’s involved in a large catastrophic injury case, for instance, the medical, the putting the case together. The proof of liability, I mean, it’s every bit as complex as any surgery you can envision.

[00:27:32] Terry Croupen:
It’s just a lot of work and it’s hard work and the details you end up arguing about are really complicated and, uh, I, I just think people don’t have any idea the work that goes into large scale litigation. We’ve been doing it for a long time. We have about 55 lawyers and, and they’re all smart [00:28:00] and they’re all hardworking.

[00:28:02] Terry Croupen:
And it’s, uh, it’s just way more than you think.

[00:28:06] Bobby Steinbach:
So Terry, we’re going to round out here, uh, with a little game. We always have game at the end and for you, we put together two games, so we’ve actually got two games for you. Um, the first one here. We’re calling the game the best. So I’ve seen your videos I trust your taste in food without a doubt But I wanted to know more about what a tastemaker like yourself thinks About other things too.

[00:28:30] Bobby Steinbach:
So we’ve got five questions here. The first one is, uh, probably gonna be the most up the middle So number one the best sandwich I’ve ever had was

[00:28:40] Terry Croupen:
hmm Adriana’s roast beef Italian beef sandwich Adriana’s is a place in st. Louis. I live actually close to there Uh, there’s an area here called the Hill, uh, where, uh, the Italian immigrants came to settle.

[00:28:59] Terry Croupen:
So it’s a [00:29:00] heavily, as a matter of fact, my wife grew up here. She’s Italian. Uh, Adriana’s on the Hill, uh, wonderful people. Uh, the sandwiches are incredible. Uh, it’s a roast beef sandwich with peppers and great bread. Good sandwich. Yeah. Excellent. You’ll like it.

[00:29:19] Andrew Nasrinpay:
All right, the best case I’ve ever handled was,

[00:29:23] Terry Croupen:
oh my goodness.

[00:29:24] Terry Croupen:
Well, me personally, my, me personally, what was his name? I can’t mention his name. But it was the first trial I ever had. I was very excited. I was a public defender. And this is in nineteen, early seventies. And it was an armed robbery and he told me he didn’t do it. And I asked him and he didn’t and we, like a two or three day trial and we won.

[00:29:54] Terry Croupen:
And he was so happy, and I was so happy. So I think in, in [00:30:00] terms of, uh, being in a courtroom and actually, I don’t think people that have never done it can appreciate the demands of trying a case when somebody’s future is at stake. I mean, this guy would have gotten Back then they were rough on people.

[00:30:20] Terry Croupen:
This was an armed robbery case. And he would have gone to jail for most of the rest of his life. And he didn’t do it. And the pressure was intense because his life was in my hands, real. And I won. And, uh, The greatest thrill I’ve ever had personally in law, you know, you just really felt good about yourself.

[00:30:43] Terry Croupen:
You really had done something and done something good and something important. So that was probably the greatest thrill I ever had.

[00:30:51] Bobby Steinbach:
Hard to beat that best. Uh, number three, the best place I ever visited was.

[00:30:57] Terry Croupen:
The second garden in [00:31:00] Ravello in the Amalfi coast in Italy, which is heaven. It’s like the, if you’ve ever been to big, sir.

[00:31:08] Terry Croupen:
It’s a mountainous, uh, where the hills come with big cliffs leading down to the sea. It on, uh, in the Amalfi coast. And there is a town called Ravello, just a beautiful old medieval town. And there are two gardens and most people go to the first garden, which is spectacular. But if you keep going to the second guard, it’s heaven.

[00:31:34] Terry Croupen:
It’s this amazing, beautiful, you walk out on this terrace, you’re about 1500 feet above the ocean. And it’s just. Spectacular. If you’re ever in the Amalfi coast, if you ever go there, go to Ravello and go to the second guard. Don’t stop.

[00:31:54] Bobby Steinbach:
It’s a good

[00:31:54] Terry Croupen:
lesson about

[00:31:55] Bobby Steinbach:
life. Yeah. We’re putting it in the show notes.

[00:31:57] Bobby Steinbach:
We’ll put them there. And then it’s going to get crowded and not be the [00:32:00] best, but for now,

[00:32:01] Andrew Nasrinpay:
the best client I ever had was

[00:32:04] Terry Croupen:
best. I mean, we’ve had so many good ones. I I’m thinking about a woman with her children and we got her a really good verdict. I mean, it’s some life changing money. And she was so sweet about it.

[00:32:22] Terry Croupen:
You know, she wasn’t arrogant. She wasn’t mad at anybody. She was just grateful. And this money was just gonna change her life. And you know, she talked about everything she was gonna do with the money was for other people. You know, it wasn’t like I’m going to buy myself a mink coat or a car. It was all about her children and her family and friends and how she was going to help everybody to the point where I had to say at one point, do something for yourself.

[00:32:52] Terry Croupen:
You’re the one who got hurt so bad, but she was such a sweet, dear person and she was so grateful and [00:33:00] she was so generous and kind. You know, we get to meet people like that a lot. That’s another benefit of being, you know, you’re seeing people at their worst. And a lot of time that reveals kind of who they are and uh, there’s a lot of good people out there.

[00:33:16] Bobby Steinbach:
The best phone number I’ve ever seen is?

[00:33:20] Terry Croupen:
Well we have all twos. I like that one. Cause I always say 2 2 2 22 22. That’s a great one. Two, like me and you. Uh, you know, it’s just, uh, we got it a long time ago, a repeater number. It’s easy. And, uh, I like the number two.

[00:33:36] Andrew Nasrinpay:
All right. The best commercial I’ve ever watched was.

[00:33:39] Terry Croupen:
Well, I have to just be a little arrogant. My own commercials. I, I wrote most of them. There was one we did where, uh, the theme was basically you’re not a lawyer. Don’t try to do something that a lawyer would do. And, uh, so we decided we brought a car into the studio and the [00:34:00] car when I would open the hood and I would be looking at it and the car was smoking and I would say, what am I doing?

[00:34:07] Terry Croupen:
I’m not a mechanic, you know, I need to get a mechanic. And so if you get hurt, don’t try to do it yourself, get, get a lawyer. And we just had to do it. You know, the smoke would come out at the wrong time, or you’d do the whole commercial, and then there would be no smoke. Sometimes the smoke was so terrible that you’d have to leave this.

[00:34:28] Terry Croupen:
It was just a monster project, you know, at a time when we didn’t have the budget to really do it right. And it was just fun. But I always remember that.

[00:34:37] Bobby Steinbach:
Yeah, that’s excellent. And if you can’t answer this last one because of ethics, then, um, then I hope you can. Uh, number seven, the best law firm in Missouri is?

[00:34:50] Terry Croupen:
In my humble opinion, it’s that nice Terry guy on television. And his son Andy. They’re good people. [00:35:00] Use them.

[00:35:00] Bobby Steinbach:
Well played. And we’ve got a second game here. This one’s gonna be a lot quicker. Um, but I think it also fits you, so I hope you think so too. Uh, game number two. This one’s if insurance companies were sandwiches.

[00:35:14] Bobby Steinbach:
For the first time ever, this is the second game on Hot Docket. And it’s going to require a little bit of creativity, so we’ll see how it goes. I’m going to give you the name, well me and Andrew will give you the name of six insurance companies, and I want you to tell me what sandwich that company would be if it were a sandwich.

[00:35:29] Bobby Steinbach:
Let’s dig in. I

[00:35:30] Andrew Nasrinpay:
feel like we’re ruining sandwiches for you right now. Yeah,

[00:35:33] Terry Croupen:
you really are, and you’re also, I gotta, we gotta deal with these people. Make them good sandwiches. I would love to do it off camera, but they’re all going to be heavenly sandwiches. Filled with fairness and joy and love for their fellow man.

[00:35:48] Bobby Steinbach:
Okay, that’s fair enough. So we’ll make, uh, a global statement. Stay farmed, Geico travelers, Allstate, Liberty Mutual, Nationwide, all delicious sandwiches.

[00:35:57] Terry Croupen:
The best people on

[00:35:58] Bobby Steinbach:
earth.

[00:36:00] :
Thanks for joining us, Terry. This was a great episode and, uh, we learned a ton chatting with you.

[00:36:05] Terry Croupen:
It’s been my pleasure. Thank you.

[00:36:08] Bobby Steinbach:
That was awesome.

[00:36:10] Andrew Nasrinpay:
I think that, uh, Terry, even here, is true and authentic to his brand. And that’s kind of one of the core themes that we’ve seen with most. firms that have great brands is it’s very consistent and it’s very authentic feeling and that’s just everywhere they advertise.

[00:36:27] Bobby Steinbach:
Yeah, I think you said it right.

[00:36:28] Bobby Steinbach:
Um, maybe you can be inauthentic and, uh, pass for authentic, but it’s hard. And I, I don’t know if I could, I look kind of like Terry. I don’t know if I would say what lawyer passes for that, even if I did, even if I could think of one, but I think that was a great episode and we’re going to put. Everything in the show notes, we’ll, we’ll put links to, uh, Brian Crouppen and all the stuff we talked, maybe we can find some of those commercials and link to those too.

[00:36:51] Bobby Steinbach:
That’d be fun. Thanks again, Terry, for joining us and, uh, we’ll see you on the next Hot Docket podcast. We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of Hot Docket. We’re your hosts, [00:37:00] Bobby and Andrew, founders of Mean Pug, the marketing agency for ambitious All.

[00:37:04] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Have questions about marketing or anything we covered today?

[00:37:07] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Email us at bark At CLARUS. com. Be sure to subscribe to learn more.